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Can BC Make Solar Bloom?
Ontario pays far more to small generators who tap the sun.
The sun is just a hazy glow behind thin cloud cover, but still high in the sky over Vancouver on this June evening, one of the longest of the year.
Today the solar panels on Doug Horn's roof generated enough electricity to power his small North Vancouver home for roughly 48 hours.
Horn installed the panels two years ago with help from Vancouver's Renewable Energy Co-operative. Once an electrician inspected the wiring, BC Hydro installed a net-meter to measure the amount of electricity coming from and going to the grid, and Horn was in business... kind of.
It will take him roughly 250 years to pay off his $15,000 investment based on the value of the electricity it produces.
For Ontario homeowners, however, investing in solar pays off in something more like 25 years, thanks to a feed-in tariff for renewables that was introduced last year in the province. It offers 42 cents per kilowatt hour for solar electricity, and around 11 cents per kW-h for wind and bioenergy.
Tying small producers into the grid
In a year's time, the Ontario Power Authority achieved what it intended to do over 10 years: secure 10,000 MW of small-scale renewable energy. It's made power producers out of urbanites, farmers and community co-ops.
A group of Toronto homeowners were among the first group to take advantage of the offer -- which is currently on hold as it undergoes review -- with help from the Toronto Renewable Energy Co-op.
They formed the West Toronto Solar Initiative, and by pooling their resources were able to get a good deal on the solar system components and also hire a Waterloo consulting firm to handle all the paperwork required to enter into a standard offer contract with the Ontario Power Authority.
"We were really looking for a genuine turn-key solution," says Ken Traynor, a WISE volunteer and member of the renewable co-op board.
"It was a learning experience all around... but by the end it was happening much quicker and much more straightforwardly. We feel we made a contribution to the whole process."
"It's really valuable to have a significant portion of Toronto's energy needs being met from sources within Toronto," he adds.
"And there's lots of potential uptake by people out there."
'Lot of talk, no government incentives'
Kevin Pegg, president of Alternative Energy, a renewable energy supplier in Victoria, says many B.C. homeowners are also interested in power generation.
His company supplies all the components of renewable electricity systems, from solar panels to micro turbines to batteries and inverters.
Traditionally, his clients have been off-grid -- people looking to power research stations, fishing lodges, hunting camps and other remote properties.
Now, he says, there is more interest from urban residents. On the positive side, he says, systems are become easier to install and cheaper, with prices continuing to drop, says Pegg.
On the negative side, he says, there still isn't enough support from the provincial government to make installing a system worthwhile for many.
"This trend has probably been one of the more challenging trends that we've seen over the last few years," says Pegg.
"There's a whole lot of talk, a whole lot of interest from consumers, but there are no government incentives whatsoever."
British Columbia does offer PST breaks on renewable systems, and BC Hydro's net-metering and standing offer program are two avenues that allow customers to tie their systems into the grid (provided they have access to a transmission line).
One of the barriers to living off-grid is the fact that electricity storage is costly. A grid-tie makes it possible to draw power from other sources when the wind is not blowing or the sun not shining, but Pegg says it is not a "magic pill" to achieve green power.
Efficiencies yield savings
"The grid tie is part of an overall process where someone is trying to lower the amount of energy their household uses," says Pegg.
"It has to do with the economics of everything. Every dollar you spend on efficiency, you save five on generation."
This is a formula Horn knows well. Before installing his system, he knocked his power usage down from 15 to 3 kW hours per day -- as much as his old fridge alone was sucking -- by replacing appliances and light bulbs and switching his electronics to a power bar.
"If you don't do the energy efficiency stuff, putting the PV panels on is more of a statement than anything else," says Horn.
"We've become accustomed to using so much energy so easily."
The provincial government has set a goal to meet 50 per cent of the province's forecasted energy needs over the next 20 years -- about 10,000 GW-h -- through conservation.
One of its tactics in achieving this is to reduce the demand, through campaigns, incentive programs for efficiency upgrades and penalties for over-consumption.
Upping the kilowatt cost
Next October, BC Hydro consumers will be charged an extra .70 cents for every kilowatt hour of electricity they use beyond a fixed amount.
However, in terms of overall energy conservation, addressing our heating and hot water demands are just as important.
Two-thirds of the average home's energy consumption is thermal, everything from showers to dishes to drying clothes.
And, in British Columbia, about 90 per cent of those homes use natural gas to meet these energy needs.
Terasen Gas, the largest natural gas provider in the province, serves 900,000 clients in 125 communities. According to its figures, the typical Lower Mainland mid-sized home uses 43.2 GJ of natural gas per year -- that's equal to two tonnes of carbon.
With rising natural gas prices and now a carbon tax to answer to, municipalities are taking conservation more seriously, and they are also looking closely at bioenergy options.
Next Tuesday, in the last in this series, we look at whether burning waste can be a sustainable source of energy.
Related Tyee stories:
- BC Hydro's Amazingly Bad Deal for Ratepayers
We give big firms $15 billion. We get higher prices, no assets, no guarantee of supply. - In Telkwa, Surviving Off the Grid
It's minus 34 tonight and the generator just quit. Why did we say no to Hydro? - Global Warming Demands Local Fixes
Half of greenhouse emissions are controlled at municipal level.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- Globe to Harper govt: Stop 'smearing' green critics
- Japan to buy F-35 jets at $240 million each
- In protest of library staff cuts, VPL workers will leaflet writers fest
- TransCanada files new application to build controversial Keystone XL
- Forcing bodily fluid samples is an unnecessary intrusion: commissioner
- Clark's deal with feds costs BC taxpayers $154M a year: Schreck
- BC commissioner critical of animal health secrecy measures
- Pro-asbestos group closure hailed by labour advocate, NDP
- Address is Approximate
- Vancouver Needs a Brooklyn, and New West Could Be It
- Corporations' Fearsome Hold on Government
- What's the Big Deal About CETA?
- Lessons from Quebec's Student Protests
- Do Kids Really Need Summers Off?
- Does Simon Fraser University Need a Men's Centre?
- 'The Avengers'
- YVR Makes You Pay so Foreign Flyers Whisk Through Free
- Five Disasters to Befall BC
- Vancouver Needs a Brooklyn, and New West Could Be It
- Visualizing BC's Climate Changed Future
- Corporations' Fearsome Hold on Government
- What's the Big Deal About CETA?
- Landmark fracking lawsuit starts with twist in Alberta
- Do Kids Really Need Summers Off?
- Petro State per Usual: Reading Alberta's Election
- The Problem with Food Banks
- Gateway Designed to Pump Far More Crude than Advertised
- Feds Muzzled Me on Free Trade Deal: Minister Bell
- Vancouver Needs a Brooklyn, and New West Could Be It
- Taras Grescoe's Excellent Adventure on Public Transit
- Feds Muzzled Me on Free Trade Deal: Minister Bell
- It's Your Tyee Podcast
- How to Rescue Canadian Journalism
- Lessons from Quebec's Student Protests
- What's the Big Deal About CETA?
- Mark Haney's Hidden Structures
- Accusations Mount over Aveos Crash Ousting 2,600 Workers
- Class Time: Year-Round Schools Help or Hurt Poorer Kids?
- Vancouver Magee students vie for national science prize
- Vancouver women break down motorcycling's sexist barriers
- Treaty process mires BC First Nations in $420M debt
- Ottawa should halt its smear campaign against pipeline detractors
- UBC j-school doc: Damming the Amazon
- France, Greece and Germany election results send austerity shockwaves through Europe
- Shell's stance on wind power reveals a profound truth of capitalism
- Why don't TV meteorologists believe in climate change?
79
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Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Comparisons...
It's made power producers out of urbanites, farmers and community co-ops.
Site C would have 900 MW of capacity at an estimated cost of $5 - $6.6 billion. Using a $6 billion capital cost for Site C, that figure of 10,000 MW for small-scale renewable energy in Ontario would equate to 11 Site C equivalents or savings of ~$66 billion in capital costs.
(Assuming that the Ontario 10,000 MW is accurate and electricity production is reliable and not intermittant).
Again, in comparison, Site C would generate approximately 4,600 gigawatt hours of electricity each year.
In other words, BC conservation goals would equate to more than two Site C equivalents or savings of ~$12 billion in capital costs.
snert
3 years ago
Confusion
From BC Hydro re: site C dam
From Wiki
"Confusion of watts and watt-hours
Power and energy are frequently confused in the general media. Power is the rate at which energy is used. A watt is one joule of energy per second. For example, if a 100 watt light bulb is turned on for one hour, the energy used is 100 watt-hours or 0.1 kilowatt-hour, or 360,000 joules. This same quantity of energy would light a 40 watt bulb for 2.5 hours. A power station would be rated in watts, but its annual energy sales would be in watt-hours (or kilowatt-hours or megawatt-hours). A kilowatt-hour is the amount of energy equivalent to a steady power of 1 kilowatt running for 1 hour:"
Ontario Hydro gets a sweet deal. Heavily subsidized power for the cost of a no maintenance hookup.
Just what is the output in MWH for a full year. How many homes does this light up. Lets make sure we're comparing apples with apples.
Chris Bouris
3 years ago
Solar electricity and the German experience
Germany which has lower average solar energy radiation than we have in Vancouver, has installed approximately 50 % of the worlds' photovoltaic (solar electric) panels. And why is that? The government of the day chose to make homes micro energy producers, thus reducing the need to build new power plants. They decided that many small hands could make "light work" (sorry for the pun). And that's what happened.
How did they do it? They used an excellent "feed in" tariff (the rate the utility credited the homeowner for producing the solar power) - but the government of the day went one better. They used a dual metering system which applies credit at the *point of production* - not just "left over" power (like we currently have in BC which pays a trivial rate). BC Hydro buys back surplus power at a lower rate than what it costs customers to buy electricity.
The German homeowner receives a credit at point of production at approximately $0.50 per kilowatt hour, and the homeowner purchases electricity at approximately $0.20 cents per kilowatt hour. Kind of like a credit and debit sheet on the bill. Homeowners - and the nation - win on the balance sheet.
German government subsidized a sustainable resource - not the fossil fuel industry (as we in Canada do).
The upshot? Fewer new power plants were needed for peak power requirements (like for air conditioning systems on hot sunny days). People covered their roofs in solar panels, and are able to pay off their solar systems before the warranties expired. Photovoltaic (PV) system Warranties are usually 20 years. PV systems last far past their warranties. They're generally warranted to drop 20% in capacity after 20 years. The original solar panel developed in the 50's is still working.
What happens if every homeowner discovers that environmentalism is fundamentally good for their pocket? That is - good for their health, their children's and their elders health, and good for the local, provincial and national economy.
spark.1234
3 years ago
but why?
what's the point of encouraging homeowners to build their own power source? With the privatization of the power industry, it would be against Campbell's policy of screwing the individual for as much money as physically possible and handing it to the corporations.
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2006/10/30/BCHydro/
I'm with Chris Bouris with environmentalism being good for your own pocket, but lets not kid ourselves that mass manufactured goods from China and banks of batteries are superb for the environment. Personal solar, hydro and wind generation are great, but mainly for the reason that Campbell and the corporations will not have you by the short and curlies. There's a lot to be said for personal independence.
snert
3 years ago
Maps
I suspect localized areas can be better or worse than the indications on the map.
Canada
This map shows why Switzerland does 'so well.'
Europe
Shows where there should be no argument.
Australia
The collected wisdom from our federal gov't. I don't know how CRA is going to treat any revenue from indivuduals feeding back into the grid
Government
You never get something for nothing.
http://www.worldwide-tax.com/
Leave my trees alone!
puppyg
3 years ago
Waiting
We would go solar tomorrow if it weren't for the 250-year payback time.
Too bad it can't happen now. Our roof has the ideal orientation to capture solar energy from the south/southwest.
In the meantime, we find ways to make the most of natural sources:
1) deciduous trees to the south of the house give cooling shade in summer, but allow winter sunshine in to warm and brighten our home
2) on summer evenings, windows are left open to cool the house, then closed to keep out daytime heat.
We are hoping for some new government incentives that will allow us to hook up to the sun. For now, it is just too expensive.
seth
3 years ago
campaign donators
Last I looked we, the great unwashed, can get paid $.05/kWh for a very expensive solar/wind netmetered installation. Enough of these distributed home systems, common in Germany, would save our collective butts in event of giant wind and ice storms or the 9.5 quake that is a coming
This is because the great unwashed make few if any campaign donations to the liberal party.
Campbell's big campaign donators with their run of the river projects on the other hand are getting guarantees of $.09/kWh to produce power of little value to us as it is mostly available in late spring when nobody needs it.
There is only one Liberal MP that actually has a brain and who is capable of resolving this, Ralph Sultan P.Eng (elect) Phd Econ . He sits on the backbench without influence, while uneducated automobile and real estate salesmen Energy minister Neufeld and Industry minister Falcon (BA) make all the decisions. Add school teacher Gordo as master of ceremonies of this gang of sleazy incompetents and we can understand why BC languishes in the backwaters of technology.
Go figure.
jwstewart
3 years ago
10,000 MW in Ontario?
To generate 10 gigawatts of power, I suspect it would take 358.7 square miles of solar panels capable of 1 watt/sq. ft.
This is a larger surface area than Metro Toronto, and I for one would support replacing Toronto with a Solar array. :)
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
solar water heaters
The place to begin is with solar water heaters. This is not rocket science folks. It is the same science that makes black seats in a closed car with clear glass unbearably hot in the summer.
From Ecogeek.com
Peg Fong, Thursday, 03 July 2008,
http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1830/83/
Note that there is a link in the article showing that this sort of thing can be low tech. The $5 model they show really is not useful for anything except as a scale model of something one might make of painted or black annodized copper.
This US gov't link from the article shows that the basic principle is not difficult nor incredibly expensive to do.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=12850
If one uses a passive system to preheat water in a tank befor an on-demand water heater, energy and cost savings could be significant over time.
If only Campbell had put money into a sliding scale rebate for installing solar water heaters, his gas tax could have had some real merit. His tax could have saved some energy.
Budd Campbell
3 years ago
NET METERS, kWh, GWH, ...
I found this article very, very confusing. I have no idea what kind of electrical generation Ontario has achieved, or at what real cost in terms of resources, and at what profit level, if any, for solar suppliers.
I have no idea how much power Mr Horn is using in his North Vancouver home, but it most certainly isn't whatever may be implied in this incomprehensible passage;
"Before installing his system, he knocked his power usage down from 15 to 3 kW hours per day -- as much as his old fridge alone was sucking -- by replacing appliances and light bulbs and switching his electronics to a power bar."
What was his old fridge sucking? 15kWh per day? 3kWh? Or the difference of 12kWh? How did he manage to reduce consumption by 80%? No, not the slogans, I mean really? Or was it really an 80% reduction? I personally don't think that's doable no matter what.
How much solar power will Horn collect in January, February, and March? What portion of his supposed 3kWh per day usage comes from his panels in each month of the year, and for the year in total? What percentage of the panel's output does Horn consume and what portion does he sell to Hydro?
Just wondering.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
agree, budd campbell
The figures don't make sense to me either.
I believe he meant the old fridge was using 3 kWh/day.
This is what a person can do that is simple, but not as convient. It really is something to consider. The homeowner was elegant in his thinking.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
here's the link to the above
0.1 kWh/day fridge:
http://www.groovygreen.com/groove/?p=527
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Speaking of Solar Panels...
We are pleased to inform you that the B.C. 100,000 Solar Roofs Roadmap project is now underway. The Goal of the project is: “To create a 100,000 Solar Roofs Roadmap that defines the strategy and action plan for 100,000 Solar Roofs in B.C.”
Under the sponsorship of the Ministers of Environment, and Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, a Task Team has been appointed to develop this Roadmap.
The Task Team will craft recommendations for a strategy for the acceleration of solar in B.C. including targets, timelines, key steps and policies which will be presented to the sponsoring Ministers.
It is anticipated that the Solar Roofs Roadmap and the Task Team’s recommendations will be used by municipal, provincial and federal governments, utilities, the solar industry, the non-profit sectors and communities to embark on the 100,000 Solar Roofs program in British Columbia.
The focus of the meeting was the development of the Terms of Reference for the Solar Roadmap study. The key deliverables are:
• Draft Solar Roadmap report available for Minister review by October 2007
• Progress presentation to UCBM conference at the end of September
• Engagement of all other stakeholders between November 2007 – March 2008
I don't know what that status of that proposal is.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
Luke
Luke,
It is my belief that you are you paid by the government or the Liberal party for making submissions to the Tyee. If you have an official government (or Liberal Party) title, in any way related to the work you do in publishing government information here, at The Tyee, will you please include it with your replies? To be thus employed and not tell the readers about such a connection would be very unethical.
Most respectfully,
Sharing Is Good
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Ohhh SIG...
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]
foobar
3 years ago
math lessons required
According to the OPA's own website (http://www.powerauthority.on.ca/SOP/Page.asp?PageID=122&ContentID=6570) Ontario has 1.36GW of renewable energy in total, 450MW being solar. Slight difference to the 10GW mentioned in the article above.
(Compare also to 17GW in coal and nuclear generation ...)
Also, there is no mention of how many MWh are produced from these suppliers. It doesn't help to generate a lot of power if it isn't reliably available.
solarsophia
3 years ago
Low Hanging Fruit
I'm one of the founders of Vancouver Renewable Energy (mentioned in the article - we're at www.vanrenewable.org ).
Here's some other info that might be helpful:
Ballpark costs and payback of the various solar options (based on BC conditions): http://www.vanrenewable.org/Catalog/payback.htm
Even though photovoltaics pay for themselves more in environmental and energy security benefits than economic ones, there are several solar options that are a good place to start. For $6000-8000 a family can purchase and install a system that will heat 65% or more of their household hot water. Depending on how much hot water you use, these pay for themselves in savings (not to mention green house gas reductions) in 6-8 years, while lasting about 25yrs. For swimming pools the payback period is even shorter.
Vancouver Renewable Energy (a workers coop ourselves) also raises and provides funding to housing cooperatives that wish to install solar hot water systems. Here's some info on that: http://www.vanrenewable.org/housingcoops.htm
We raise the funds ourselves for these projects by selling carbon offsets.
Sophia Kelly
Team Member, Vancouver Renewable Energy
www.vanrenewable.org
Chris Bouris
3 years ago
Solar systems and what the numbers mean
For those who've inquired about "units of measure".
A 1000 Watt system equals one kilowatt ("Kilo", is a Greek word meaning "1000").
A 1000 watt system (1 kilowatt ) produces 1000 watts of power if one were to test it "instantaneously" - like a sudden "flash of light" hitting the panels in an "instant", the flash being equivalent to (or can be calibrated to) the brightness of the sun (If you imagine setting off even a puny little camera flash in front of your eyes, it's really bright).
That's how they test solar electric ("photovoltaic" panels, or "PV") panels: They "flash" a very bright flash on the thing, and they measure the instantaneous power with a meter - a "watt" meter. Wattage is the product of voltage ("v") measure in "volts", times the amperage ("I") measured in "amps".
If a known 1000 watt systems receives the same (continuous) sunlight for 1 (one) hour, the power output form the system is 1 kilowatt hour (1 KWh). Not 1 kilowatt per hour, but one-kilowatt-hour.
Old fridges were (are) total power drawing gluttons. In Doug Horn's case, his old fridge "drew" (consumed) 3 kilowatt hours per day of electricity.
His old fridge consumed (in a 24 hour period) 3000 watt-hours divided by 24 hours (averaged across the day), the units in hours "cancel" out, and your left with watts (instantaneous power), so you get about 125 watts of power being "drawn" at *any* point in time (on “average”) by the appliance.
With a solar system (which is producing a *fixed* amount of peak power at any moment of time), say 1000 watts in this example, a highly consumptive appliance, drawing high wattage (power) at any point in time, is a big deal. Then try throwing in an electric dryer(!!), and then all your other house appliances (electric oven), computers, television..electric heating (!!)..
.. So yes, the first goal is to reduce how much *instantaneous* power anything (and the *sum* of everything electrical in your house) draws. That's part of the energy audit you do, and then you calculate your "energy budget", and *then* you select a solar systems that'll drive your setup. The fewer watts appliances draw in sum total, the smaller the solar system required, the cheaper it is to buy (and to pay off).
As another poster indicated, a solar hot water system (as well as a solar air heater) is best bang for dollar for domestic water and air heating. In a number of countries in Europe (and not just in Europe) - and on other continents - you *cannot* get a building permit for a new home without solar hot water system on your building plans. No solar - no permit.
It may surprise some to discover which European country has highest per capita installations of solar how water systems in Europe: Austria.
Not some thermally hot place, geographically.
Chris Bouris
3 years ago
Solar systems in Vancouver - SPEC
As a point of information, and for those who may be interested - if you're in Vancouver, you might consider to check out the SPEC building (the Society Promoting Environmental Conservation). 6th and Maple, in Kits.
SPEC has a 1.4 KW Photovoltaic system (3 years old), a solar hot water system (working perfectly, 25+ years old), and a new solar air heating system (installation almost complete). There are also community gardens in front (that go for several blocks).
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
Luke
I must'a missed your exchange with GWest. I am always impressed with his analytical skills. [GIVEN THE ANONYMOUS NATURE OF THIS FORUM, MAKING ASSUMPTIONS OR ACCUSATIONS ABOUT ANOTHER COMMENTER'S REASONS FOR BEING HERE WILL BE REMOVED. PLEASE FOCUS ON THE CONTENT OF EACH OTHER'S ARGUMENTS. -MODERATOR. ]
Peter Dimitrov
3 years ago
BC's energy policy wanting
Chris Bouris - you make great points, it is time for BC Hydro and the BC Utilities Commission to revamp the payouts to small producers that are net-metering. The system they have in Germany to subsidize small renewable energy producers, rather than our subsidization of the non-renewable sector seems sensible. Indeed as "SharingisGood" stated: "If only Campbell had put money into a sliding scale rebate for installing solar water heaters, his gas tax could have had some real merit. His tax could have saved some energy." If only, indeed, rather than handing out $100 cheques, had the $446 million had been pooled and targeted for subsidization of renewables and transit subsidie to cities and users...the carbon footprint would be significantly reduced. I hate to say it, but I believe only a slim percent of the Green projects listed on the Tyee Campbell Cash contest, will see any substantial money to see their dreams realized. If, however, it all was pooled into a Green Capital Fund, with a board of directors accountable to, and responsible to the co-op shareholders, lots could be done with the annual interest of $16-$20 million per year, never mind one-time spending of a portion of the principal. So my answer to the question "Can BC make Solar Power Bloom" - is no, the government had a chance with the $446 million carbon rebate and didn't do it. It has had many chances to fashion an energy policy more responsive to householders and communities but it hasn't, where is the political, fiscal, rationale for them doing so in this pre May 2009 election run-up year??
RickW
3 years ago
seth
http://harpers.org/archive/2008/08/0082132
The Wrecking Crew:
How a gang of right-wing con men destroyed Washington and made a killing
Looks as though Green Gordo has his mentors.......
RickW
3 years ago
SIG
A passive solar hot water system just plain ain't sexy enough to be promoted.......
freebear
3 years ago
Not before we suck up the last barrel of oil!
If BC supported alternative renewable energy it would be hard to justify allowing offshore oil and gas exploration and production! And you can bet the Gov is banking on continued oil & gas revenues.
Unless of course they create a solar tax!
G West
3 years ago
I see the auditor general has just delivered a report
THAT SAYS THE PUBLIC INTEREST WAS NOT SERVED IN THE TRANSFER OF FOREST LANDS on Vancouver Island FOR REAL ESTATE PURPOSES...HE ALSO SUGGESTED THERE MAY WELL HAVE BEEN A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
Interestingly, the new forests minister, Pat Bell, has wasted no time dumping on an independent officer of the legislature - the Auditor General.
Typical! This government is so utterly self-serving and incapable of analysis that it cannot imagine anyone interfering with its continuing exercise of hegemony over the people and the public assets of British Columbia. They have turned the public service and the institutions of the place into little more than a joke.
The wrong people are out of work in British Columbia.
BrianWhite
3 years ago
Solar electricity expensive, solar hot water cheap.
People cannot wait for solar electric! But it is a pain in tha ass hooking it into the grid or storing the energy.
And the classic (economic) way to measure efficiency is if the repayments on your loan to buy the equipment will be covered by the money generated from selling the power or (the savings from using the power). Solar electricity just is not there.
It is strictly a hobby still.
Solar hot water or air heating is the way to go. It is way more energy efficient too.
I am currently trying to make a cheap diy heliostat for poor country applications.
A heliostat is a mirror that moves to reflect the sunlight to one spot all day.
This is also an option for lighting and for newer high spec high temp solar panels just coming on the market. (You can send the light from 3 or 4 heliostats to one place for the (Newest) panel type).
People love high tech but sometimes it is a costly distraction.
Like hydrogen as an energy source! People love it and give you puzzled looks when you ask where the hydrogen mines are.
Rob_
3 years ago
re: Budd's Questions
Budd asked:
" Or was it really an 80% reduction? I personally don't think that's doable no matter what."
I have seen a couple of examples of this type of type of reduction. It certainly is doable. Most people have no idea how much power they are wasting.
"How much solar power will Horn collect in January, February, and March?"
1.6 kWh, 2.8 kWh and 3.6 kWh.
" What portion of his supposed 3kWh per day usage comes from his panels in each month of the year, and for the year in total?"
It ranges from 1.6 kWh in January to 6.3 kWh in July.
"What percentage of the panel's output does Horn consume and what portion does he sell to Hydro?"
On an annual basis it averages out to 100% of the solar output being consumed by the home. During the summer he uses less than half of the output and the rest is sold to Hydro. During the winter his house consumer about twice the output of the panels so he has to buy half of his consumption from Hydro.
Rob_
3 years ago
"...But it is a pain in tha
"...But it is a pain in tha ass hooking it into the grid ...."
it is actually fairly straight forward if you know what you are doing.
David Lewis
3 years ago
Remember the Fast Ferries......
Governments have a poor record picking winners.
Germany is betting that they will be able to be the world's engineers in solar power. Otherwise there would be no point in subsidizing to this astonishing extent the installation of a load of solar panels located in one of the poorest locations in the world you could pick, i.e. their home country. In their minds, China will manufacture what Germans design and install for the world.
The huge German subsidy makes no sense otherwise.
Have we forgotten the $1 billion poured into the construction of three well constructed preposterously designed boats that we had to throw away? Never mind they couldn't reach their designed speed. If they had been successful we would be now be wondering how to unload them because high speed on the water translates into colossal fuel consumption.
Why should government even try to pick the winner? We aren't "reindustrializing" as Germany is said to be doing, with their bigger positive trade balance than China has. After Germany refines solar technology, we can install it here if it makes economic sense.
That is why economists recommend a carbon tax. Forget subsidies. Tax carbon emissions so much that it makes no sense to emit any carbon at all and lets see what technologies develop.
Tax carbon to the max, instead of running in fiftieth place in the world's race to become the engineers for a solar voltaic technology that may not win in any case.
Let 100 flowers bloom.....
People who think that taxing carbon enough to have this kind of impact will disrupt their lives too much ought to consider what a sea level rise of 20 feet would look like in Vancouver......
Change is coming, whatever we do.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
Further to Rob's counter to
Further to Rob's counter to Brian White's assertion:
Rob is correct Brian, it is not as difficult as it may seem. When you produce your own power (solar, wind or hydro), you can feed in through a CSA approved, grid compliant, inverter so power automatically complies with the rules.
The main thing you will need is a certified electrician and/or an electrical inspector to approve of the work being done, and BC hydro will hook you up. Generally, (if one can find an agreeable electrician) one can do the work him or herself(if he or she is handy), and then just pay the electrician to inspect the work and pull the permit. If one is not too handy, there are many whole kits being offered in a package, they can be purchased and an electrician can hook them up.
snert
3 years ago
SIG
How much will installation and connection to the grid cost if you don't know what you're doing and are not buddies with an electrician.
Let's get realistic here. How many people consider themselves adequate in the d-i-y category as far as electrical work is concerned.
spark.1234
3 years ago
don't forget
... factor in the increase in the value of your house. The 'renewable energy handbook' says a $15,000 investment in a solar PV system increases a house value by $20,000 on average.
Also factor in Hydro bills tripling within 10 years thanks to Campbell and an exponential increase once the contracts are up, and the maths starts to work out.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
Snert
That is why Campbell should have tied the gas tax to these sorts of initiatives. That is why Campbell should have been training technicians instead of throwing a $6-7 billion dollar olympic party. Just think of what we could have had if that money were to have been spent intelligently on green initiatives.
Neighbourhood product fairs could have been put together. DIY workshops could have been put together for people wanting/needing to save money on installation. Subsidies and no interest loans could have been available for people making the conversions.
Campbell has had seven years to organize, and all he has come up with is a $100 rebate. What a joke! To me, the only organizing he does well is to keep the mainstream media to be on his side and his MPs tight-lipped about all of the government screw-ups and friendly deals to corporate buddies.
You can take online workshops right here:
http://www.solarenergy.org/
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
BC Hydro power buy back
Here is the "Net Metering" link for BC Hydro. It tells what one must do to get connected to the buy back programme.
http://www.bchydro.com/info/ipp/ipp8842.html
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
snert, getting bc hydro to help
From the BC Hydro site:
http://www.bchydro.com/info/ipp/ipp992.html
snert
3 years ago
Interesting, SIG
Your first link covers every thing. If you need to use the second one you're talking big bucks.
In any event you seem to be on a program of DIY cost reductions when most people would rather stay alive than mess with something that can kill them or burn their house down.
I really suspect that the numbers being bandied around now do not reflect the installation and hook up costs in 2008 dollars. You can subsidize things all you want but that will still not reduce the overall cost and may in fact raise it higher.
I find it interesting that one of the big selling points is the fact that if the grid goes down one still has power. To me that means a large supply of toxic batteries that have to be dealt with. That's a great DIY project.
BTW my house is in full shade up until 11 AM and then starting again around 6 PM. No point in switching to either solar powered electricity or water heating. Instead of a 250 year payback I'd be looking at, say, 301.76 years.
Sorry, the trees are more important. Other things to try might be heat pumps or tankless hot water> Both reduce CO2 emissions without a lot of unsightly clutter.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
snert
Actually, snert, there are a number of things that one can do to maintain power if the grid goes down.
With water wheel hydro, the system may be set up to allow the homeowner to use the power before diverting extra to the grid.
With wind and solar, one may only get lights when it is windy or sunny, but extraneous power during high production times can be used to pump water to a reservoir which can then be opened to a pico-hydro generator. In this way a family can keep its freezer from defrosting or their furnace fan going. Stored water can be used directly to run a hydraulic motor for a heat pump. Also, flywheels can be installed to even out power from irregular wind and electrical generation.
Granted apartment dwellers may have a problem with the size of this sort of mechanical stuff; however, if the power is out and a car battery or two can be brought in to keep some lights and freezers going, then (during an emergency) they may be more useful in the house than in the car. I know, not everyone is handy, but many are, snert. Most people can learn to handle their car batteries safely. A person's 24 volt DC system can continue on to the inverter before being directed to one's electrical panel to run a few emergency circuits. If things are set up correctly with color coded instuctions, then people who understand the concept of self reliance can make do quite nicely even when they don't understand all the mechanics of some peice of technology.
Snert, you keep looking for ways to be negative about ideas that have proven to work. People have been using turbines to produce huge amounts of electricty for 130 years. As a mater of fact, a hydroelectric turbine in England has been in nearly continous operation on the same site since 1880. This is not rocket science. You have spent your whole existence using technology that uses electricity; but, if you don't want to be self-reliant, snert, you don't have to.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
heat pumps and hot water
Snert, if have read some of my earlier postings, you will note that I have always advocated for heat pumps and for hot water on-demand systems. On-demand hot water tied to a solar water preheat reservoir should even work for your available sunlight. Properly insulated, the hot water your house collects for you during the day could give added heat to your water all evening (maybe even by the next morning. And escaping heat can also help heat your house in the winter.
snert
3 years ago
Being self reliant is one thing
Being an enviro snob is another. I've never said this stuff won't work I just question peoples motives when they try to convince others that their way is the best.
The energy cost of production for anything associated with residential solar power is extreme to say the least. The silicon to produce cells, the copper for the wire, the glass, batteries, inverters, electrical panels, transportation and so on.
I haven't seen it worked out but I suspect there might be more green house gas reduction by not using this method on existing structures. New buildings , no problem as it would just become part of the CO2 deficit generated by the constuction and may even be rolled into those costs without too much of an increase.
If you're off the grid, sure. Why not.
If someone is a customer of a power company that primarily uses coal fired generation then alternate means of generation start to make environmental sense.
In BC we have the ability to have 100% green power but I don't think it is necessary to go overboard on other methods that involve high energy consumption to produce the materials required.
As far as I'm concerned residential self reliance is not necessarily environmentally beneficial.
RickW
3 years ago
G West
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/07/16/bc-tree-farm-report.html
The auditor general also noted what he called unusual activity in the stock markets, an issue he asked the BC Securities Commission to investigate.
This is perhaps, a little off the immediate topic. But (as they say in the movies) it goes towards credibility. And this government's credibility is at best compromised. So ANY proposals made by this government need to be scrutinized very closely.
Even the contests one finds in cereal boxes excludes employees and their immediate relatives from participating. That Rich (There's nothing I can do) Coleman's brother is directly involved with WFP should have brought into question ANY business Rich (There's nothing I can do) Coleman had with WFP as Forest Minister.
I say, good on the Auditor General!
alive
3 years ago
Coleman and Bell
And I say good on you G West to bring this subject to the Tyee!
Perhaps breaking into a current topic is the way to get attention to things while still hot!
I suppose the Tyee is waiting for one of its staff writers to produce an article for us?
Guess what: we are getting to the point where the article is less important than the comments!
We really do not need for Rafe to roll out his stock rants anyway!
As far as Coleman and Bell go this is an outrage that should upset everyone!
BrianWhite
3 years ago
Solar electricity is still not economic sense.
You may not find it a pain to hook up but it is a cost.
And your power is put into the grid at giveaway prices.
It just does not make economic sense.
Pure and simple.
Dispite what you say, direct solar heat for your showers and baths is viable now. Solar panels (and the super expensive deep cycle batterys and charge controllers that go with them)
cannot dilliver enough energy to cover interest on capital.
And thats where it is at.
If you cannot cover interest, you are either a hobbiest or a salesman.
Good solar design of houses could be mandated. Thats stuff like house orentation, shade trees for summer, bare trees for winter. That can save big bux per year but nobody thinks of it.
bilgladstone
3 years ago
Can BC Make Solar Bloom?
Can it? Yes. Will it? No.
Excess home-generated electrical power cannot be sold back to the Utility, as it can be in Alberta or Ontario, in order accelerate capital cost recovery.
The present Government is all talk and no trousers with regard to substantive and coherent "green" action.
They would rather privatize (read, sell off) all public utilities, services, and assets to their corporate brothers.
And I fully expect they will be re-elected in the next go-round. Pity, that.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
B.C. 100,000 Solar Roofs Roadmap Update
Well, I guess the answer is now here as queried in my previous post:
The SolarBC program is aimed at encouraging more homeowners, schools, social housing projects and first nations communities to install solar water heating systems and help reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
Nitya Harris, executive director of SolarBC, estimates there are fewer than 500 homes and businesses with solar water heating across the province.
The idea is to start slowly, with a goal of equipping 100,000 roofs with solar water heating by 2020.
The government program comes just weeks after the province began offering solar water heating rebates and grants to homeowners. It also brings to $20 million the amount of money leveraged by the provincial and federal governments that cities and residents can apply for if they wish to install solar water heating.
Richard Siegenthaler of Taylor Munro Energy Systems, one of the few companies that installs solar water heating, said the government should hold back on marketing solar water heating until there are enough trained installers in place.
"Solar has gone nuts in the last couple of years; like anything green it's just started to boom," he said. "We have a market and there's not enough companies out there to capitalize on it. There's going to be companies shooting out of the ground doing this stuff because they can make money."
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=4a85dc0f-327f-4eaa-87e1-d5825711eebe&p=1
Chris Bouris
3 years ago
Solar Facts in answer to several comments
I haven't seen it worked out but I suspect there might be more green house gas reduction by not using this method on existing structures. New buildings , no problem as it would just become part of the CO2 deficit generated by the construction and may even be rolled into those costs without too much of an increase.
From Vancouver Renewable Energy's website:
http://vrec.ca/fact_sheet.htm
The energy payback is 2-4 years. This means that after 4 years the panels will have produced more energy than it took to manufacture them (the embedded energy).
The (SPEC) system will reduce green house gas emissions by over 800 kilograms per year.
This assumes that the system will offset the need for new generation in B.C. with a mix of 20% coal, 70% natural gas and 10% large hydro. When compared to generation on the entire North American grid the reduction is over 900 kg.
Excess home-generated electrical power cannot be sold back to the Utility, as it can be in Alberta or Ontario, in order accelerate capital cost recovery.
Not correct. Excess home power can be sold back to BC Hydro (as of 2004). The "Feed in tariff" the rate hydro buys back surplus power from a homeowner is less than BC hydro sells it (selling to customers at approx 6-1/2 cents ). That's the problem. That's why solar payback seems slow. Solar is not the problem..
IPP's get well over 50 cents (can scale up to approx 80 cents in the life of the contract) per kilowatt hour, when BC Hydro buys it from IPP's (privately owned power producers). Hydro must buy their power, as they're directed by the province, for the life of their (approx 40 year) contract.
******
When one does not act - how much does it "cost" for the continuous mining of ore's (coal) - or drilling for oil - onshore or offshore - for non-renewable products or energy, the processing of the ore, the trucking (or marine barging or large shipping), all the infrastructure etc..the costs, both in ongoing greenhouse gas production, environmental risks and damage from getting fossil based energy to market are staggering.
The "payback" from non-renewables (fossil fuels)?: Zero.
and the penalty? Enormous, from a human health, ecosystem and non-human species impacts.
What's the "payback period" on a $20,000 car btw? - Initial purchase, gas, oil, servicing, insurance..
What about the economy? The biggest growth industry in terms of jobs (in local economies as well) in continental Europe, second only to Information Technology? Renewable Energy.
G West
3 years ago
There's Millions and millions
Solar programs amount to $20 million from both provincial and federal sources...sounds impressive doesn't it?
But not when you compare it with the $440 million which was just WASTED on a hundred bucks per head bribe to keep people from squealing too much about the Campbell tax.
When Campbell gets serious about promoting alternate means of energy production he'll cancel the Run of River sell out and bring all of BC Hydro back under public jurisdiction.
Don't hold your breath though, like Campbell's little shoot from the lip statement to Gary Bass of the RCMP about the Taser murder at YVR, the man has a hidden agenda he keeps from the public at all costs.
Profits motivate the CEO Premier, just as they do his former minister of forests, Rich Coleman.
If you don't like the sounds of that, you can access the auditor general's report here:
http://www.bcauditor.com/include/view_file.asp?id=18&type=publication
Absolutely the worst government this province has EVER had. The public interest doesn't rate vary highly in this province - in fact it doesn't even occur to these characters that they are behaving like money mad drunks.
Budd Campbell
3 years ago
SPEC OFF BASE (AS USUAL?)
Chris Bouris,
Interesting information about the somewhat differential pricing as between homeowners with panels and IPPs with sweetheart contracts. Hopefully the next BC election will result in the complete and total destruction of the Hydro givaway policies of the last few years.
However, I wonder how SPEC's calculation of 800 kgs of GHGs can make any sense whatsoever given their use of assumed generation sources that are simply not applicable in BC and never have been.
"This (800 kg) assumes that the system will offset the need for new generation in B.C. with a mix of 20% coal, 70% natural gas and 10% large hydro."
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
I Never Thought I'd See This...
Since we're on the topic of renewable energy... BC's First Wind Farm is making some progress...
Prince George, B.C. – Eight of the first B.C. wind turbines hitched a ride today on CN Rail as they travel North to the Dokie Wind Farm, 40 kilometers northwest of Chetwynd.
Each turbine holds three 45-metre blades. It takes two flatbed cars to carry a blade. The wind turbines are capable of generating up to 144 megawatts of power.
Earthfirst Canada Inc has plans to install the first eight by this fall with the goal of 48 turbines to be up and running by fall 2009.
http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/10002/3/okie+dokie?
snert
3 years ago
Chris Bouris
Sorry Chris but this only covers panels and not the entire system.
Different ballpark, different game.
If one is already using a renewable resource doing nothing can be better than doing something that requires the use of non renewable resource. It's all in the numbers.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
Care must be taken
As this is the same Campbell government that saw fit to increase the sale of whole logs, and allow WFP to remove land from its TFL and sell it privately, we must be careful to make sure that the government does not let any of the generation of power in BC to fall to the private sector. BC Hydro power generation must remain in public hands. If it falls into private hands, there are provisions under NAFTA, GATT, and the WTO that could let this "good" fall under special rules regarding discrimination against a business in trying to market its product to the highest bidder. The tedious particulars can be decifered by visiting:
NAFTA Provisions
and the Electricity Sector
www.cec.org/files/pdf//nfta5-final-e2.pdf
It is a real can of worms. The more that BC and Alberta integrate through TILMA and the leaders of North America continue to integrate through closed door SPP meetings, the more our hydro-power, our rivers, are in jeopardy. Indeed, I find it worrisome that small IPPs get their foot in the door, as I believe thay only have to sell to BC for a certain time frame (25 years) after which they may sell this "good" to whomever they choose. What is the point in even allowing them to kill our rivers if we are not going to own the power in the end. It scares me.
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
Our Own Home Grown Solar Photovoltaic Manufacturer
Caught this on Global BCTV news this evening and was pleasantly surprised.
Day4Energy is apparently a booming manufacturer of solar photovoltaic modules here in Metro Vancouver and are in the process of hiring yet another 100 employees as a result.
The firm is headed by Dr. John MacDonald, co-founder of well known MacDonald Dettwiler & Associates Ltd.
Knowing Dr, MacDonald's background I'm sure that they have a quality product and their sale revenues are currently 95% to Europe and, as of May 8, 2008, total secured contracts for delivery in 2008
through 2010 had reached 153 MW.
Would sure like to see these guys capture some of BC's marketplace.
http://www.day4energy.com/aboutus_day4energy.htm
RickW
3 years ago
Luke Skywalker and other "believers".....
Like so much of what Campbell does, it is aimed at some commpletely arbitrary date in a nebulous future. The real purpose of course, is to capitalize on THE PROMISE now. Whether or not it is actually delivered is another story......
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
further to RickW
With the Gas Tax, Campbell could have put $2000 toward retrofitting 225,000 low income earners' roofs with solar hotwater systems. It could have been done within just a few years, and plumbers and low income homeowners and BC citizens, in general, would have been happy. Who knows, maybe some solar hot water equipment factories could have been built with some real wages going to people who are currently selling coffee and donuts.
RickW
3 years ago
SIG
What are you -- a kow-moon-ust?!
The last thing this 'government' is, is a Robin Hood................it's much more like a robbin' hood.
Chris Bouris
3 years ago
Solar Facts - GHG's and other figures
These figures assume a higher use of coal (there'd been discussion of creating coal fired plants in BC). Withdrawing coal from the equation, the GHG reduction figure would be reduced, logically (the figure with reducing coal would drop toward 700 Kg).
Btw, GHG production is not a trivial in Hydroelectric generation; there are GHG's produced in the biodegrading of vegetation due to hydro operations where reservoirs are filled and drawn from.
..Yes, there is a small inverter box.
..and unless one is using one of Nicola Tesla's, years-ahead-of-its-time wireless power systems ( i.e. "bluetooth-like" power sources driving lights and the like - there is wiring in all systems.
If you want to find (or quibble with) explicit scientific research on GHG and embodied energy of production payback, you can look up the National Renewable Energy Laboratory http://www.nrel.gov/.
Maybe you're quoting baseball. And certainly not obfuscating.
Yogi Berra had some interesting sounding quotes too, quite applicable to fossil fuels.
Here's one:
"I know we're lost, but we're making good time".
RickW
3 years ago
Further to Chis Bouris
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7046
snert
3 years ago
Wood does not rot well
at the bottom of a reservoir hence the recovery operations that find lots of suitable logs for milling that have been submerged for up to 100 plus years.
If you wish to give that article full weight then you might as well throw in the towel and just carry on as usual. It makes all other means of reducing GHGs seem trivial.
I'm really surprised that the article didn't suggest that Canada and the US drain the Great Lakes as they do exactly the same thing. Wow, start draining all the swamps as well.
There is such a thing as over thinking a problem and this is surely one area where that has happened.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
a little dated - but timely
The following essay, "Irreverent Commentary on the State of Education in America Today", is timely with respect to this topic. Though published but four years ago, some of the data are untrue with respect to highly improved efficiencies gained in both, the production and the output of photovoltaics, however, the main point of the essay is one that is important: whenever we look to economic growth, we are told to look at population growth as being a key ingredient.
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro, asserts that we should include population control in our model and that economic growth can thus be attained by considering the raised standards of livings for the fewer who do exist.
http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-07-26-04.htm
Indeed, our government still believes that population growth is vital to improving BCs economy: it proudly publishes population growth numbers (with fanfare)everytime those numbers increase. This false belief is based upon doing things the same way as has been done in the past -- continuing to run an economy based upon the unequal distribution of its resources, its citizen's wealth. Earlier this month, a Tyee article that showed us that the wealthy unnecessarily have a much greater carbon footprint than the those below the middle income line. Everyone in this province must understand in his heart and mind that there is more than enough for all if we share.
The wealthy are generally well-educated. Certainly they can learn that greed has no ethical place on a planet with finite resources. We must stop rewarding greedy people. We must begin re-educating people to understand that life is not about having the most toys and burning through the greatest number of resources, life is about sharing and finding peace within. This needs to be taught at private schools and West Van schools as much as anywhere else. Once we understand this, we will understand the need to change the way we reward and often idolize wealthy people.
Once one's basic health, safety and belongingness needs are met, joy comes from creating art and doing good works on behalf of others. In fact, one can even find short term joy in creating art and doing good works for others, though his or her basic needs are not fully met. Neither the acquistion of wealth, nor power nor fame provide for long-lasting happiness. No amount of consumption can fill a void in one's soul.
Chris Bouris
3 years ago
Decomposition of plant media and GHG's
The comment Rick W from the New Scientist article speaks specifically to first dam construction, first flooding, then the seasonal draw downs, plant media exposure, seasonal plant growth, flooding, then decay and decomposition in the flooding of the reservoir, and subsequent plant media release of GHG's in this cycle. More significant in hot countries, but certainly not trivial at all in cooler regions, as ours.
The New Scientist article is not about "mature logs" being as affected by (and releasing the largest amounts of GHG's) from constant draw down cycles. It's about smaller plants, that have seasonal growth and subsequent decay.
FYI, The Japanese have been our raw logs and coating them in wax, then dropping them into the bottom of their water bodies.
There is no need for surprise. The author has greater sense and wouldn't suggest it.
At the periphery of a reservoir might be another matter. There may opportunities for local use in remote communites, in terms of extracting milling exposed logs from shoreline edges at higher level reservoir elevations. There may be specific guidelines, and mitigation of impact criteria, to that end.
I'd watch out for mirrors when posting such a comment.
snert
3 years ago
No need to watch for mirrors.
Canada is listed as a "hydropower polluter" even though we have had no significant projects for many years. The article obviously is not just dealing with new projects.
The only thing the article really points out is that you never get something for nothing.
No matter what system you choose you will not get "4,600 gigawatt hours of electricity each year" (projected output from Site C)without some serious environmental modification. It may not be visible at the production site but it will be there.
However, the article could be used to justify run-of-the-river projects which could provide significantly less polluting hydro power.
RickW
3 years ago
You are right, snert
The only problem is that SOME people DO get something for nothing, and others pay the price. As long as someone (you for instance) is on the get-it-for-nothing side, they (or you) will continue to push for OTHERS to pay.
Perhaps the "100-mile diet" ought to apply to hydro power generation, as well as O&G extration. Just think of the efficiencies that short tansmission lines and pipelines could generate.
RickW
3 years ago
SIG, are you suggesting we.....
Eat the Rich?
http://www.groveatlantic.com/grove/bin/wc.dll?groveproc~genAuth~568~0
or
Eat the Poor?
http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html
snert
3 years ago
Just where is that written in stone?
Advocating brain washing to get what you want is no better.
snert
3 years ago
BC Hydro mismanaged?
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=1d853790-8854-444f-b892-dd57680c1af3
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
rich and poor both eat - just not too much
I'm suggesting that all be fed, RickW -- that we share our burdens and our joys. I am suggesting that we need to give up greed and overconsumption so that our great grandchildren will enjoy a better planet. I am suggesting that the earnings of people with ample capital are out line with what is fair to hard-working others who maintain small ecological footprints.
This is a matter of survival of the creatures on our planet, Snert. It is time that people in wealthy nations took less for themselves. It is time for the wealthiest people on the planet to quit being so greedy. Greed is not a virtue, it never has been. Telling people they need strive no further than to be safe and comfortable is not brainwashing, it is merely part of teaching respect for all beings.
snert
3 years ago
To strive for mediocrity.
The new motto.
It'll never happen but I can guarantee this that someone else will come along and scoop up your children's and grandchildren's share if you persist in this line of thinking.
RickW
3 years ago
SIG
Then how on earth will the rich know they are rich...........? :~)
Can you imagine the rich and the wannabes giving up that elusive (for the most part) goal?
Whatever would the snerts of the world DO with themselves?
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
RickW
My dark side has a few ideas about what they can do...but I'll leave that to your (and the moderator's) imagination.
The lighter, more hopefule side of me says that they could help others meet their needs and they could practice mindfulness. There are always plenty of things to be done that have nothing to do with being selfish.
They will know by the smiles that others have for them. They will know by the smile they have for themself for having committed unselfish acts. They will be able to discern the difference between a smile and a sneer, and they will always choose the smile. They will know they are rich because they will not have the addictive need to own, control or consume any more than what they need for health and security - and maybe just a bit of fun.
Budd Campbell
3 years ago
NOT EVEN CLOSE, CHRIS
Chris Bouris
These figures assume a higher use of coal (there'd been discussion of creating coal fired plants in BC). Withdrawing coal from the equation, the GHG reduction figure would be reduced, logically (the figure with reducing coal would drop toward 700 Kg).
It's not just the mix of coal that's completely out of scope, the use of substantial quantities of natural gas has never been a reality. Burrard thermal is a small part of the Hydro mix, nothing like the proportions SPEC has assumed. And the bit about hydro dams generating GHGs, ... PUH-leeze.
snert
3 years ago
Wrong
Sorry but everything is done for selfish motives. It's just human nature and it can't change.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
altruism
Believers in objectivism do not believe in altruism. Snert, if you have watched Citizen Kane and read Siddhartha and choose the path of Citizen Kane, then there is very little I can teach you spiritually. I can't write as convincingly than Hermann Hesse did.
Otherwise, I can provide you with information that you may take or leave in your quest for finding self-satisfaction through getting over on others. Perhaps I can help you materially if I look for ways to help you have a smaller ecological footprint. Perhaps you can be good for others if you can confine your need for things to the collection of invented money. Maybe it is better to collect money than extra cars, boats and condos - stuff.
ME2
3 years ago
Snert
I am among those who believe there is no such a thing as a "human nature" that is genetically encoded. We are the result of learned input that begins at birth, the content and values of which varies widely from culture to culture, viewponts which sometimes be diametrically opposed.
If selfishness is unopposed in children and becomes a success strategy for them, they carry this childishness into adulthood. If this is seen as "normal", as per the neocon ideology you subscribe to and which now dominates our society, then of course survival is far easier if one just "goes with the flow".
However, within pre-contact aboriginal groups which depended entirely upon mutual cooperation and effort, theft, lying, and accumulation of individual wealth was incomprehensible to them, even while all these restraints were off when dealing outside the tribe. There are plenty of similar examples from "primitive" to "civilised" peoples.
Clearly, our cultural mores drive how we interact with our fellows, and that is why we Lefties hold that the Right-wing propagandistic claptrap your media feeds the public is primarily intended to convince people that the selfishness and greed exhibited by the business community and the rich is the unavoidable price of "progress".
OTOH, you folks hold that anything taught which might suggest that UNselfishness is far more productive for the common good, is "brainwashing", as you noted above.
G West
3 years ago
Altruism
I'm afraid your understanding of the nature of human behavior and psychology is somewhat spotty.
You need to do considerably more research, but I can tell you unequivocally that you'll find this statement, of yours,
Sorry but everything is done for selfish motives. It's just human nature and it can't change.
Is just plain WRONG.
I'll let you do the research yourself though, it'll be good for you.
You might want to start with this article from NATURE:
The nature of human altruism
by Ernst Fehr and Urs Fischbacher.
And no, it's not available on the web.
Still, you should be able to access it at your local library or, if you have a friend who has access to online journals.
But don't stop there, a great deal more work has been done on the subject, numerous books have been published and much work is currently being done.
The acceptance of the dead end lie that nothing motivates human behavior but selfishness is the problem which has brought us to our current pass - it needs to be rooted out and disabused every time one encounters it - whether from anonymous online posters or the sociopaths who run this country and the corporations who pay them.
RickW
3 years ago
Budd Campbell
So you are disputing this out of a sense of wishful thinking? Or do you have some small knowledge that it is otherwise:
This is because large amounts of carbon tied up in trees and other plants are released when the reservoir is initially flooded and the plants rot. Then after this first pulse of decay, plant matter settling on the reservoir's bottom decomposes without oxygen, resulting in a build-up of dissolved methane. This is released into the atmosphere when water passes through the dam's turbines.
If so, would you be kind enough to share?
RickW
3 years ago
Further to Altruism
http://www.freewebs.com/wild-lions/unusuallioncreatures.htm
Smilodon fossils from the La Brea tar pits include bones that show evidence of serious crushing or fracture injuries, or crippling arthritis and other degenerative diseases. Such problems would have been debilitating for the wounded animals. Yet many of these bones show extensive healing and regrowth indicating that even crippled animals survived for some time after their injuries. How did they survive? It seems most likely that they were cared for, or at least allowed to feed, by other saber-toothed cats. Solitary hunters with crippling injuries would not be expected to live long enough for the bones to heal.
http://discovermagazine.com/1993/apr/sabertoothedtale202
So this and other examples suggest that these animals had a social structure that actually encouraged the nurturing of injured individuals. Perhaps their families brought them food, or at least protected them from other carnivores. At the very least, injured animals may have been allowed to hang around the site of a kill and eat after everyone else was done.
snert
3 years ago
And here in lies the problem.
It seems that people cannot accept that selfishness and altruism must coexist. There is a balance but it varies according to circumstance.
Which comes first, the altruism or the selfish desire to embrace it?
ME2 - Teaching with a predetermined philosophical goal and only that goal in mind is brainwashing. That was my only point.
G West - Altruism can be used to provide the motivation to get people to give up their selfish desire to life and go off and fight wars. It matters not for this argument that they might have been lied to. That makes it superior?
SIG - Striving for mediocrity just won't cut it. It didn't in the past and it won't in the future. You just can't tell someone who is very good at what they to stop doing it.
I believe that most wealthy people are not greedy by nature and that any money they spend on that which you deem to be frivolous is money that goes to keep other people employed. I'm also pretty sure that some of that money gets spent supporting things that you hold dear.
That being said I believe that altruism is being used to motivate people into making hasty decisions about alternative energy sources. Those decisions may waste resources, financial or otherwise, that could be better spent.
I will add that I think if done correctly the western half of NA could be a powerhouse of 'clean' energy. The resources are there. All that is needed is the will to go forward and the desire to see that we in BC don't get screwed in the ear for our part in the grand plan.
G West
3 years ago
That's NOT what you wrote, remember?
This is what you wrote.
Sorry but everything is done for selfish motives. It's just human nature and it can't change.
And it is, plain and simple, a lie.
Period.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
snert - part 1
Snert:
I am glad that you tempered the above with this:
It is on that frivolous note that I want expand. I think that many of us need to cut down on our frivolous consumption: Plane trips; private/corporate jets; 2,3 and more homes; homes with enormous square footage costs; power boats; Hummers; huge motor homes and travel trailers, multiple large TVs, ever changing wardrobes of poorly constructed materials, wastefully concieved and carried out home renovations, etc. etc. etc. I think that many of us can also continue to enjoy many of the things we currently enjoy if we learn to conserve and share.
On that part about telling someone who is "good at doing something to stop doing it", I concur; however, it seems the satisfaction that many those people achieve is in the doing. Perhaps some human doings won't ever learn to relax enough to become human beings, but I am hopeful that we can. That being said, I do enjoy people being committed to altruistic ends. (Atheletes on steriods are not being altrusitic.)
I believe that there should be a heavy sliding scale taxes applied to people who make exorbinate amounts of money. People working for (or being ground under by) other people who are good at getting wealthy deserve to have a greater share of the profits for their labours. All employees of businesses should be enrolled in corporate profit sharing based upon both, balance sheet and net income. The work week needs to be reduced. Regulating corporate take-overs, usery, and stock market activity may be more difficult, but I believe it is achievable.)
None of the above points to "mediocrity". The measure of one's value as a being nor the quality of the work one does need not be based upon material possessions - it could be based upon the inner knowledge that one has done his best (internal point of reference vs. external locus). I know several "good business people" who are self-serving bullies. They may be good at presuring people and getting what they want out of a deal, but it doesn't make them good people. In fact, their employees generally hate and fear them (but they keep working for the bullies, partly because of victim mentality and partly to keep bread on the table). If everyone behaved the way the bullies do, I believe it would be a much lonelier world.
SharingIsGood
3 years ago
snert- conclusion
It is time for North Americans to embrace more of their social nature. Too much has been given to the American ideal of the rights of the individual. People in BC have a long history of helping one another and sharing. There has been too much of a shift toward being like the ill and failing United States. Individual rights need not be a carte blanche for taking and controlling and consuming as much as possible, as much as one can get away with! To return to the topic at hand, this thread is about energy; if we work together, all can have plenty of energy. If we work together, we will have fewer desperados doing whatever desperate thing they can think of to get a greater share of BC's energy.
Objectivism doesn't work because it increases disparity. Disparity creates desperation. Sharing works.